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Post by clduds34 on Jul 16, 2013 20:42:41 GMT -5
I haven't heard any news on the Pats in probably a month besides AH and Dennard. I haven't really been looking into them, I've been pretty busy. That would be great if Dobson was stepping up. I heard about a month ago he looked a little lost and was dropping a lot of balls. If he gets going our offense will have a chance to be explosive right off the bat because we know TB12, the running game, DA and JE should all be performing, barring injury.
Md, that's the thing with the pass rush, it looks like it's a toss up right now how they'll be. We have some serious depth so all we need is one or two guys to take a big step forward from last year but as of right now we don't have that guy that we can say will definitely give us 10-12 sacks at least. It's exciting knowing that we have 6-8 guys with potential to be excited about with Jones, Francis, Buchanan, Bequette, Collins, Armstead, Vega, Bernard and maybe a few more. I don't know any other teams with this many guys who could step up but no sure things.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 20:58:21 GMT -5
There is no area other than QB play that does not have questions. Whether its the OL, or the DL, or the secondary, and even the RB's, there are a lot of open issues. Of all of these "Who will provide the edge rush from the DE?" is the hardest to answer.
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Post by clduds34 on Jul 16, 2013 21:02:10 GMT -5
Anyone heard anything on Joe Vellano in camp yet?
I was reading a piece on Akeem Spence the other day, the DT the Bucs took from Illinois. Didn't know much about him going into the draft but sounds like he could be a steal for the Bucs with the 3rd pick in the 4th Rd. He averaged over 60 tackles in three seasons as a DT, that's pretty nasty. Not a DT that will be a huge sack guy but is very active.
Still amazed by Vellano's 94 tackles as a DT in 2011. I'm really rooting for this kid to make the team. You know he's going to hustle his ass off for you.
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Post by clduds34 on Jul 16, 2013 21:19:05 GMT -5
I agree fg, we have a lot of uncertainty and a lot of potential but like usual the big names like TB, VW, Mayo should lead us to a division title. I think it's on our young talent to put us over the top.
I could easily see Jones giving us 8-10 sacks this year, especially if we play him inside on passing down like I hope we do. He doesn't have the speed lined up out wide to get to the QB on most plays. Stick him inside lined up over a G and all he has to do is beat the G with a quick hand fight like he can do and he is right in the QBs face. Outside he still has to accelerate and run another 5-8 yards to get to the QB after beating the T and his lack of explosiveness get exposed. He needs to be more consistent this year, our whole pass rush does. TB12 allows our D 45-55 pass rush attempts per game but 3-4 pressures and 1-2 sacks per games isn't going to win us a title. Consistent pressure from these guys is a huge key for us no matter if it comes from 3-4 guys or 10-12.
I'm hoping getting VW off the field more and letting guys like Jones, Armstead, Kelly, Cunningham and Francis shoot the gaps up the middle will drastically improve our pass rush. If that happens it would allow single blocking on the outside with our smaller DEs and OLBs.
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Post by mdraine82 on Jul 16, 2013 21:25:17 GMT -5
I got to see a lot of Vellano being in the ACC and I was surprised to see that he went drafted. Where did Kenny Tate end up going? I cant find anything other than he was invited to Philly at some point. Both of those guys dominated at times in college.
Fgpbls - off topic, have you been keeping up with BC lately on the recruiting front? I think they are tied with the most commitments in the country and a top 20 class so far with 3 more scholarships left to hand out. Not to mention they picked up another Flutie.
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Post by oforilly on Jul 16, 2013 21:36:49 GMT -5
I agree fg, we have a lot of uncertainty and a lot of potential but like usual the big names like TB, VW, Mayo should lead us to a division title. I think it's on our young talent to put us over the top. I could easily see Jones giving us 8-10 sacks this year, especially if we play him inside on passing down like I hope we do. He doesn't have the speed lined up out wide to get to the QB on most plays. Stick him inside lined up over a G and all he has to do is beat the G with a quick hand fight like he can do and he is right in the QBs face. Outside he still has to accelerate and run another 5-8 yards to get to the QB after beating the T and his lack of explosiveness get exposed. He needs to be more consistent this year, our whole pass rush does. TB12 allows our D 45-55 pass rush attempts per game but 3-4 pressures and 1-2 sacks per games isn't going to win us a title. Consistent pressure from these guys is a huge key for us no matter if it comes from 3-4 guys or 10-12. I'm hoping getting VW off the field more and letting guys like Jones, Armstead, Kelly, Cunningham and Francis shoot the gaps up the middle will drastically improve our pass rush. If that happens it would all single blocking on the outside with our smaller DEs and OLBs. Vellano IMO is a elite type run stuffer, lateral movements is sick. Not sure his frame will allow him to beat Tackkes consistently to the qb on padding downs. I think he is an ungrade over Love by far..as a whole the D is more athletic and faster (if) he makes the team. Should give u more than Cunningham IMO!
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Post by clduds34 on Jul 16, 2013 21:46:12 GMT -5
Great point ofor. Our D for years now has been this slow run stuffing D. No one is moving around, shooting gaps or making plays. Guys like Love and Deaderick were a perfect example of that, they hold up the blockers and Mayo would tackle the runner 4-5 yards down field. Vellano isn't your 330 lbs run stuffing DT, at 285 he's a non stop motor guy who will squirm his way between and around blockers to make tackles on pure effort. I've been calling him the next Mike Wright, Karl Klug or Mike Martin, a 3rd down active DT specialist. I think with active guys like Armstead, Kelly, Vellano and some of our DEs that can do more than just run straight into the blocker and let our LBs make the tackles, we might see an explosive, attacking D finally instead of a dull stagnant one. We could see a lot more stunts from our DEs and DTs and even throw in our LBs too on some blitzes and stunts. Hightower and Collins are primed for some good pressure. Our D becomes so much more versatile with athletic DTs that can move laterally.
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Post by oforilly on Jul 16, 2013 21:53:29 GMT -5
I'm real excited about Buchanan. I think he is a steal. Very Athletic, extremely high motor, he needs a good coach to get him over the top. Saw him wash lane Johnson at Senior Bowl setting the edge well too.
Think u guys may be right about CJ as 5 tech or interior rusher. You draft for potential thinking he is one thing and he grows into something else, I say go 3/4, use all the passrushers in rotation and keep everybody fresh
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Post by clduds34 on Jul 16, 2013 22:15:58 GMT -5
Buchanon's road to the NFL reminds me a little of Michael Johnson's. Johnson was projected as a top 5-10 pick going into his last year in college. After struggling a bit his last year in college, he fell to the 3rd Rd but the potential was always there and now he's a double digit sack player. Buchanon might not have been a top 10 prospect at anytime but he was probably a late 1st-early 2nd Rd prospect going into last season because the potential was/is there. Lets hope BB and company can bring it out in him. Great 7th Rd pick, huge reward/no risk pick.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 22:32:26 GMT -5
If you guys had to guess what will our opening day starting front 7 be? Nink-Kelly-VW-Jones Hightower-Spikes-Mayo I think we need to work Collins in immediately with his athleticism and versatility but who do we bench Nink? I'd be all for that and going with the base 3-4 but I think BB trusts Nink over any rookie too much to change our scheme that soon. I think VW-Armstead-Kelly DL and LB Nink-spikes-Mayo- Hightower in a 3-4 set Cassis: Dont forget Chandler Jones, FG. He has put on noticeable bulk from what I had heard. I think Vince, Kelly, Jones on the DL, Nink playing both some DE and OLB, with Hightower Spikes and Mayo. Collins comes in on 3rd down for Spikes, and Armstead, Francis, Buchanon, Abraham?, etc will come in for Vince on 3rd.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 22:45:13 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkWhC-d8_0IJake Ballard highlights, try to forget he tore up the Pats secondary. If back close to 100% his rookie year, do people realize how effective he could be with Brady? Him and Gronk on the field would seriously help the run game, especially when it counts. He makes Fells expendable if both TEs are healthy. He is limited in his route tree when comparing to #81, but who wouldnt be? Gronk may be moved around a bit more and I seem them attacking the seems with Gronk and Ballard. You then have a solid run game, and if healthy Amendola is a player who can excel both underneath/lateral route as well as downfield/sideline routes and screen game. Amendola will have a much bigger route tree than Welker. The final piece is Dobson. IF he can develop into a consistent (for a rookie at least) downfield threat and sideline presence (a more athletic Brandon Lloyd) the offense can put up serious points. But obviously I just painted the most optimistic painting fo the offense possible due to all the injury, system, rookie learning curve, etc questions/variables that can force them to struggle
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 6:44:12 GMT -5
I think VW-Armstead-Kelly DL and LB Nink-spikes-Mayo- Hightower in a 3-4 set Cassis: Dont forget Chandler Jones, FG. He has put on noticeable bulk from what I had heard. I think Vince, Kelly, Jones on the DL, Nink playing both some DE and OLB, with Hightower Spikes and Mayo. Collins comes in on 3rd down for Spikes, and Armstead, Francis, Buchanon, Abraham?, etc will come in for Vince on 3rd.Two things.. I did forget Jones, and I think he would be better as a 3-4 OLB. You can use the "quote" button to start your replies. It will copy all of the message including any included quotes. [edit: I think I am wrong about this.] If space is an issue you can delete the non-relevant portions of the copied "quote" as you write your response. Oh, if you select the drop down setting menu for any message, there is an option "link to message". This will allow you to set up a link to that previous message. That way, you can respond to a message on another page with out having to copy the old message. The link allows the read to "jump back" to the other message so they can see the context of you post. There are some things you can also do so you could reference multiple previous messages in this thread, or other threads, as you build you POV.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 6:46:51 GMT -5
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Post by mdraine82 on Jul 17, 2013 8:20:07 GMT -5
Good points fellas. With the personal moves on defense you have to think they had an attacking defense in mind. I like the smaller more athletic DL - even with Wilfork being a monster he still moves like hes 40 pounds lighter. With the amount of guys that can play with their hand in the dirt and standing up, they will keep offenses guessing with the vast amount of looks they can give. If the pass rush and secondary can compliment each other - the Pats should have a top 10 defense this year.
Thinking about AH - I dont think it will be very hard to replace his production. He was hurt often and if you think about it - it was his potential that will be missed, not his actual play. Next man up.
Will be interesting to see if Tebow carves himself out a role on the offense or Special teams.
Preseason is going to be awesome - I would be interested to see Brady, Mallet or Tebow taking snaps. No game will be dull.
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Post by brian2783 on Jul 17, 2013 11:39:58 GMT -5
I want 3 stars....am I not a full member?
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Post by mdraine82 on Jul 17, 2013 11:43:58 GMT -5
It took me 10 posts to earn my 3rd star haha
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Post by clduds34 on Jul 17, 2013 18:35:36 GMT -5
I don't know fg, I can't see C.Jones as a 3-4 OLB at all. He is too unathletic in space. I see him as more of a grinder in the trenches, solid against the run. He isn't really explosive off the edge. If it's true he's added a lot of bulk, I think he could succeed as an undersized 3-4 DE. I'm really not a big fan of him at 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB unless he drastically improves his speed/burst this offseason, although I'm sure we'll see him at 4-3 DE.
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Post by oforilly on Jul 17, 2013 19:24:41 GMT -5
I don't know fg, I can't see C.Jones as a 3-4 OLB at all. He is too unathletic in space. I see him as more as a grinder in the trenches, solid against the run. He isn't really explosive off the edge. If it's true he's added a lot of bulk, I think he could succeed as an undersized 3-4 DE. I'm really not a big fan of him at 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB unless he drastically improves his speed/burst this offseason, although I'm sure we'll see him at 4-3 DE. BB has a mixture of both 3/4 &4/3 guys, how it all unfolds is anyone's guess. I'm not sure what the D will look like cuz all we need is two stand up (3/4) olb who can contribute consistently inorder to be a legit 3/4. Vega, Buchanan, Collins & Francis come to mind. Kick Cj ,Kelly or Armstead @5 tech & Vince @nt. That leaves 2 inside backers so Spikes the odd man out w/ DH and JM inside. Or he could just play a new scheme. An even front w/ one 3/4 olb standing as the fourth or fifth defender and all 3 linebackers on the field behind it. Or run a 4/3 kicking CJ next the Vince and Armstead and Hightower at DE. Behind them are Mayo, Spikes and Collins.. D has a lot of potential and versatility, can't wait till preseason to see it.
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Post by panimal on Jul 17, 2013 19:24:46 GMT -5
I don't know fg, I can't see C.Jones as a 3-4 OLB at all. He is too unathletic in space. I see him as more as a grinder in the trenches, solid against the run. He isn't really explosive off the edge. If it's true he's added a lot of bulk, I think he could succeed as an undersized 3-4 DE. I'm really not a big fan of him at 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB unless he drastically improves his speed/burst this offseason, although I'm sure we'll see him at 4-3 DE. I would much rather see him as a DE in 3-4 pass-rushing fronts, he's got some wiggle to his game which combined with his length and strength can result in his beating an OT around the edge but he doesn't have the skill set athletically to do so cleanly and to do so often, he'll have to win a lot of battles while engaged.....I don't see a prototypical rush OLB with Jones, I'm sure we'll see him stand up but I'd prefer to see him rushing as a down lineman in both fronts. I think Hightower and Collins are going to be standing up most often, along with Nink.
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Post by clduds34 on Jul 17, 2013 20:16:49 GMT -5
Would love to see a 3-4 LB core with Hightower and Collins outside and Spikes and Mayo inside, with a front 3 of Kelly, VW and Jones with Armstead rotating in often. Then sub in Nink, Buchanon, Vega, Bernard, Bequette, Francis, Cunningham, Fletcher, Steve B and Vellano, depending on who is hot in the front 7. This would be my ideal lineup but I know Nink will be in the mix and most likely starting although I'd much rather see him as a hybrid sub 4-3 DE/3-4 OLB on passing downs. Definitely a ton of versatility and depth as long as we get consistent pressure and guys like Collins and Steve B can help our LB coverage issues.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 21:05:49 GMT -5
I want 3 stars....am I not a full member? 10 messages will do the trick
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 21:12:25 GMT -5
I don't know fg, I can't see C.Jones as a 3-4 OLB at all. He is too unathletic in space. I see him as more as a grinder in the trenches, solid against the run. He isn't really explosive off the edge. If it's true he's added a lot of bulk, I think he could succeed as an undersized 3-4 DE. I'm really not a big fan of him at 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB unless he drastically improves his speed/burst this offseason, although I'm sure we'll see him at 4-3 DE. CJ concerns me in space when he has to play cover. I think he is better standing than with his hand in the dirt. The extra step before he has to engage with the T or TE I think would help his rush.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 21:16:52 GMT -5
FWIW, a suggestion ...
We do not have to post all our messages in this one thread. We can create separat threads to explore topics of interest.
That is a key way this software differs from ENPN. Over there we had no choice. Every message had to be in one thread. We could not create topics and create separate threads.
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Post by brian2783 on Jul 18, 2013 9:29:42 GMT -5
I think Collins tips the the D more 3-4 than anything....seems like we have 4-3 DL but 3-4 LB's do we not?
With the excemption of Vince who can play 5 tech or 3 tech and Nink who can play OLB our D is more 3-4 personnel wise.
I agree that CJ is not an OLB. maybe had have the lenght but i don't see him being able to drop and cover and move well in lateral movements. I do think he can play DT in passing downs.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 10:15:56 GMT -5
I agree that CJ is not an OLB. maybe had have the length but i don't see him being able to drop and cover and move well in lateral movements. I do think he can play DT in passing downs. I agree on his pass cover skills, I just think he needs a little more space for his first move towards the QB. I like VW playing some DE too.
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Post by brian2783 on Jul 18, 2013 10:43:30 GMT -5
All I know is that I couldn't remember an off season with as much specualtaion and questions about the team in a long long time.
WR position , the Defensive look of the team, the DB situation with Dennard. I still predict 59 catches 788 yrds 7 TD's by Dobson / 89 catches 1171 yrds 4 TD's by DA and the break out comes from Vereen 720 rushing yrds 42 catches 590 yds 9 TD's catching / 2 rushing.
I see LaVelle Hawkins pitching in with 22 catches , Boyce with 13 , Jones with 27, and Edelman with 25 until he gets injured.
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Post by oriolebill on Jul 18, 2013 17:05:29 GMT -5
Guys,
On a side note I love that you get e-mailed when someone replies. I also think Collins tips us to 3-4 and I hope he plays a lot and early. I think he's much more athletic in coverage than anyone we've got now. Back when we were predominantly a 3-4 "D" we had the personnel to play it well. BB has tended to play more hybrid defenses recently(4-3 on one side/3-4 on the other). I'm not sure whether that's because we haven't had the personnel for one or the other or because BB is evolving in his defensive philosophy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 17:20:10 GMT -5
Looking back, maybe the trade down in April will hurt us this year, but not two+ years from now IMO. a 1st round talent could really help this team with so many questions
We passed on Patterson, Hunter, Elam, Cyprien, and Ogletree as options at #29 to pick up picks 52-Collins, 83-Ryan, 102-Boyce, and 229 (which was flipped with Demps for Blount).
In reality, we could have drafted Patterson or Hunter (instead of Dobsons spot) at 29, then still gotten Collins at 59 but you never know. And with Dennards situation the CB depth could be in serious question, and also with AH gone, not having boyce might hurt too... but youd think the 1st round WR is an automatic starter and a batter all around talent then a 2nd and 4th round WR combined. That all goes away if Dobson performs like a starting caliber rookie (especially if he has a better year than Patterson/Hunter), and Collins finds a role that contributes 1/2 the amount Hightower did last year. If those two picks pan out, trading back wont matter...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 17:38:13 GMT -5
I think Dobson has a very productive season, IMO he doesnt start the year in the fold, but by week 2 or 3 at the latest i think TB12 begins to look his way and we see him become a regular in the lineup and a regular target for Brady. I personally think he starts 13 games (the final 13, assuming no injuries) while Jenkins starts the first 3 and is then cut.
I believe Dobson has 45-50 catches, 575-600 yards, and 5 TDs. I see Amendola with 90 catches, 1000 yards, and 8 TDs. Gronk goes for 85 catches, 1250 yards, and 12 TDs (I assume he only misses the first two games) and Ballard goes for 45 catches, 550 yards, and 5 TDs. with Vereen tallying 50 catches, 550 rec yards, and 3 rec TDs, making TB12s new top 5 receiving options
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Post by clduds34 on Jul 18, 2013 18:14:48 GMT -5
Good to see some predictions. I think the only way we go to a 3-4 is if BB wants Collins to start and I don't see him pulling Nink out of the starting lineup just yet, although I'd love to see Collins workout all his rookie kinks on the field starting week 1.
I think we see 50 tackles, a few sacks and a few picks from Collins as we break him in slowly then start to see him get significant snaps later in the year after our offense gets rolling, giving us leads and facing more passing plays.
RBs: Ridley 1100-12, Vereen 600-5 and 40-500-5 WRs: DA 100-1200-7, JE 55-600-5, Dobson 35-500-6, Gronk (8-10 games) 40-550-8, Ballard 50-600-7.
Front 7: CJ 9-10 sacks, Hightower 100 tkls-5 sacks, Francis, Bequette, Armstead all right around 4-5 sacks. Something is telling me that Kelly might be another aged D-Lineman who comes in and disappoints. Spikes will be a beast vs the run with at least 5-6 FFs but still cant play the pass. Mayo gets his 130+ tackles.
DBs: Talib 5-6 Ints(Pro Bowl), McCourty 6-7 Ints (Pro Bowl), Dowling (plays 12-13 games) 3 Ints, Dennard gets cut and jail time, Wilson brothers share time with Adrian starting. If we get a pass rush they make a lot of big plays, if we don't they will struggle vs the deep ball.
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